Richard T. Fowler

Offering Christian and Christ-centered commentary about climate- and energy-related issues.

Do We Judge, and How?

Gator69 makes a number of moral arguments about judgment, the civil law, and temporal punishment, starting here:

https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2015/04/18/failed-billionaires/#comment-515976

and culminating here:

https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2015/04/18/failed-billionaires/#comment-516069

He requests a response from me. Here is my response.

Gator, to judge morality is to judge actions rather than people.

Ask yourself what is the meaning of this:

Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matter? Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

and this:

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.

We know we are not to judge individuals guilty; therefore it is something else we are to judge.

In those days there was no king in Isra’El, every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Without judgment of morality, everything is equally good in our eyes. But what is evil according to God cannot possibly be counted good by us. Therefore we cannot call everything equally acceptable.

We don’t vote in the statehouses because we cannot hold those offices, and we don’t control other people’s private houses. But we have our freedom of speech to call something evil, wrong, unjust, or unacceptable, just as you do. And I note that you very much like to exercise that freedom, and you liberally do so.

We are no threat to you whatsoever. It is you who would threaten us for expressing our views, because you hate them, you view them as evil, and you yet believe in your supposed authority to take retribution, to use the carnal power of the sword in the name of justice, and in the name of the Lord. You have already told me I have trampled your human rights and am acting outside the law, by simply doing the same thing you’re doing. You don’t repudiate the doctrine of retribution for injuries against you, so by implication you would support punishing me for such perceived transgressions. While your government sword could theoretically be used simply to force me into a prison cell, there are some on your side who would only be satisfied with capital punishment for speaking as I’ve spoken to you.

When you speak of rights, you are speaking of law. But it seems that you don’t really understand the law of which you’re speaking.

A covenant is a contract, and provided it is duly executed, it is legally binding on all who agree of their own free will, who are of sound mind.

There is a principle over which we’re arguing, and it’s a principle you have thus far not acknowledged: the principle of the durability of an association of free people, unencumbered by the efforts of hostile outsiders to destroy it through various means, including laying traps for the destruction of its people. Much of this may be through brainwashing, much more may be just through well-planned sales strategies. This is similar to the tactic of divide-and-conquer, in which the people recruited from within are aware that they’re being recruited. But the effect is the same, either way. Now you say this is none of my business if this happens. I respect your opinion on this, because my interpretation on this has also moved somewhat as I’ve matured in Christ. But you should also respect mine, because I can make an irrefutable argument from Scripture.

There is a second disputed principle over which we’re arguing. This is the principle of forgiveness of others in exchange for forgiveness of ourselves by God. You are prepared to exact punishment for crime, so you do not forgive all transgressions. Therefore you have not accepted the covenant which is offered to you. And there is only one covenant which is offered to you. This is not a cafeteria plan.

By denying the need to forgive transgressions, you are denying the Lord. So unfortunately, He will deny you as well. You think you act and speak with authority because you think you have accepted Jesus as your Lord. But by your testimony, you have not.

And since you think you have the true faith, you just assume that I have the same belief about the meaning of forgiveness. Thus you arrive at the assumption that I seek to interfere in the affairs you refer to. YOU ASSUME WRONG.

You say, who are you to judge morality? I say, who are you not to?

“Set the trumpet to your mouth. He shall come as an eagle against the house of Ihwh, because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law. Isra’El has cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him.”

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27 responses to “Do We Judge, and How?

  1. gator69 2015/04/20 21:10 at 21:10

    Wow! I am honored to have received so much of your attention simply because I believe that God gave us free will, and I agree with my hero Thomas Jefferson…

    “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. … Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.”
    -Thomas Jefferson

    And then ther is another hero of mine who said this…

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may
    be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than
    under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes
    sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for
    our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of
    their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same
    time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with
    intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which
    we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet
    reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants,
    imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
    – CS Lewis

    Both were God fearing men, who understood liberty, maybe you should argue with them RTF.

    Mind your own business.

      • gator69 2015/04/20 21:17 at 21:17

        And you got it. We are not a theocracy RTF.

        Go ahead, tell me how Jefferson and Lewis got it wrong.

          • gator69 2015/04/20 21:18 at 21:18

            [SNIP -RTF]. Mind your own business, salvation is a personal issue.

            • Richard T. Fowler 2015/04/20 21:21 at 21:21

              We are not talking about salvation. We’re talking about what is good and what is evil. And furthermore, as I’m sure you know we were given a commission to preach the gospel to the world, all the nations. Do you believe the Word is true?

              • gator69 2015/04/20 21:24 at 21:24

                When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
                -John 8:7

                You are giving Christians a bad name, by judging, instead of being.

                How has that worked for Islam?

                • Richard T. Fowler 2015/04/20 21:26 at 21:26

                  Except that I agree about punishment, and have already so several times. Why will you not acknowledge this??

                  • gator69 2015/04/20 21:29 at 21:29

                    I acknowledge that you are a busybody, and trying to find a venue where I do not embarrass you in friont of others. I am not here to help you improve your traffic RTF.

                    Be a Christian, and people will come to you. Be a busybody, and you will drive them away.

                    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may
                    be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than
                    under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes
                    sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for
                    our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of
                    their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same
                    time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with
                    intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which
                    we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet
                    reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants,
                    imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
                    – CS Lewis

                    • Richard T. Fowler 2015/04/20 21:31 at 21:31

                      Well, you’re wrong about what I’m doing here. I feel it is very inappropriate to have this entire discussion over there because it’s disrespectful to the host.

                    • gator69 2015/04/20 21:33 at 21:33

                      So in other words, you are ashamed of your actions, when viewed by others.

                      We agree now.

                    • Richard T. Fowler 2015/04/20 21:40 at 21:40

                      No, I’m not ashamed of my actions. That’s what I would have been if I posted over there, because I know he doesn’t like that, and I’m not out to make enemies.

        • Richard T. Fowler 2015/04/20 21:25 at 21:25

          What is this about we’re not a theocracy?? I haven’t said we are. I’ve said the exact opposite in the post above. Have you actually read it?

      • Richard T. Fowler 2015/04/20 21:17 at 21:17

        Of course God gave us free will to transgress. The issue of free will has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. For what it’s worth, if you’re a believer then you know you’re not supposed to use that opportunity. That was what caused The Fall and all this corruption.

        God’s business is my business, and yours as well.

        • gator69 2015/04/20 21:20 at 21:20

          You sound like a nut. Pushing religion onto others who are not receptive is pushing them away. Let them find it through your actions, and not by the whip RTF

          • Richard T. Fowler 2015/04/20 21:22 at 21:22

            The problem here is I’m not whipping anyone. But you will not acknowledge that, seemingly.

            • gator69 2015/04/20 21:25 at 21:25

              What are you doing right now RTF? You are attacking me. Be a Christian, and quit throwing stones.

              • Richard T. Fowler 2015/04/20 21:28 at 21:28

                How am I attacking you, Gator? We’re having a debate. That’s all. No stones involved.

                • gator69 2015/04/20 21:31 at 21:31

                  Youn wrote an entire post, because you wanted to attack me.

                  You are arrogant and a busybody. Grow up.

                  • Richard T. Fowler 2015/04/20 21:37 at 21:37

                    No. I did not want to attack you. I wrote a post for the reason I stated above, because you asked and I didn’t feel I could put it up over there. I’m not trying to cause trouble with you. Had I known you would react like this, I never would have bothered. I don’t even have the time for this kind of thing. I was attending to a medical emergency in the hospital in between posts to you, just so you wouldn’t mock me for not responding! You understand, Gator? Another human being was suffering, and I was having to pull away to handle this. It was not what I wanted, and it’s not what I have time for. If you don’t want me to talk about your views any more, that’s fine! But you keep raising issues, so I have to keep responding.

                    • gator69 2015/04/20 22:13 at 22:13

                      I prayed for you last night. as I pray for Obama (that’s a tough pill to swallow), my neighbors, and my family, because I know that the only way to reach anyone is through prayer and kindness. Being a busybody drives away those who need the Gospel most, they already feel guilty, and do not need to be reminded. It is what gets Christians mocked, and despised.

                      I pray you are well, and whatever the emergency was, it is no longer.

                      I reach atheists by not telling them how to live, but by just being a Christian to the best of my ability. You push away those who need God most when you condemn and judge. Show mercy, kindness and patience, and you will reach those for whom God has sent you.

                      Build it, and they will come. Drive it, and they will flee.

                      You are making enemies whether you mean to or not. I would like to think I am a Christian, but that is not my judgement to make, and there is only One who can. I will admit that you make me angry at times, with your holier than thou attitude. Stop it. If it offends a fellow believer, imagine how non-believers react.

                      “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
                      -1 Corinthians 13:4-8

                      “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”
                      -1 Corinthians 13:4-8

                      Yes, I am combative when it comes to earthly truths and matters, but when I am trying to extend God’s love, I find it is better to show kindness than assessment.

                      Now if you do not mind, I am late for dinner.

                      God always be with you. Listen more, judge less, and preach only when called. And you will be called, when your light shines brightly.

  2. gator69 2015/04/20 21:26 at 21:26

    “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others.”
    -Thomas Jefferson

  3. Richard T. Fowler 2015/04/21 01:45 at 01:45

    gator69 2015/04/20 22:13 at 22:13

    Gator, your well-wishes are appreciated, and I love you too, man, but since I am someone who loves you, I’ve just got to tell you this. You have many false beliefs about what God expects of you and what His Word says and what it means. In deference to your expressed wishes, I will not offer you any further correction after this. But you should not think that my silence implies capitulation; it does not. We all have our callings, just as we all have our plans. The difference is that we don’t all have ears to hear ours. I have heard mine, and I’m doing what I can to answer it. I don’t answer to you or to those friends of yours you alluded to, and while I mourn and pray for all of you, I cannot at this late date be too concerned for them. There is a Church that needs my help, and it is on its way down to the depths of the tribulation that is appointed for it to face for yet a short time. The vast, vast majority will fall away during this terrible time. The preaching I do, which is much more than what you can see online, is mainly focused on helping them to endure these painful and potentially depressing last few days. We are supposed to give many chances to the others, as the Lord gave us many chances. But in these last days, we don’t do this to the point of neglecting the needs of those who have already entered by the door, having heard the Lord’s voice at a good time, and are now having their faith tested as never before and as it never will be again. They are also suffering under increasingly deadly attacks by an increasingly evil and wicked world that truly, truly hates them to their very center, not for what they say or do, but merely because of what they are and in whom they believe. To fight against this by trying to force-fit ourselves into the mold the world wants us to fit into (that is, a blasphemous mold which would call evil good, and good, evil) is to fight against God himself. Hopefully I don’t have to remind you of the prophecies about the last days of the Church, how it will endure the greatest suffering, death, and destruction at the very end, being reduced to 144,000 men at the Lord’s return, and how Gamali’El spoke these fateful words which are as applicable to believers today as they were to nonbelievers back then: “Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: but if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it; lest haply you be found even to fight against God.” This turmoil and this loss of faith in us that you allude to is prophecied, and it is ordained of God just as our ministry is, and it cannot be overthrown, nor should we want it to be. It must come to pass, for our own salvation to be complete. It is our peculiar cross to bear in this time. That is why we will be first in the time to come. To try to resist it, is to be found even to fight against God. I am praying that you will someday awaken to this reality and stop doing so, and will also accept Christ as not just your Savior, but your true and entire Lord, in part by following through on your obligation to forgive all transgressors (against all victims), past, present and future, so that you too can receive the baptism of fire which is the only baptism which saves in this age.

    The grace and love of God be with you.

    – Richard

    “But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be you idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur you, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.” — I Corinthians 10:5-12

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